CBC interviews with Bobby Sheets, Keith Ouellette, “Roger,” and Albert Roy re “alleged” paedphile ring

CBC Radio interviews with “alleged” victims of Cornwall

quote: Albert Roy,   Cornwall survivor

“You would think that somewhere in society there’s somewhere a victim can go to get real help – and I think the real help is not just in therapy, but it’s changing the system itself – changing the way the victim has to go about proving his case –  the time it takes. Time always works in favour of the accused, not the victim.”

PROJECT TRUTH   CORNWALL

CBC RADIO Tuesday October 10 2000

Wednesday October 11 2000

RS:

My name is Robert Sheets. I am 38 years old, I am from the Cornwall area.

CBC (Rita Celli):

The slight man in orange coveralls sits on a chair in the visiting room of this jail in London, Ontario.   He folds his hands in his lap.

RS:

I am adopted. I was brought up by Christian parents. A very good home. Never hurt for nothing. My mother was probably over-protective which could have had a lot to do with my naiveness in all this when I was younger. I was a teenage alcoholic.

CBC:

Sheets is behind bars for drunk driving. He has had a problem with booze since he was a teenager. That’s also when he first got in trouble with the law. Things got so bad, his parents kicked him out of the house and he found himself sleeping in parking lots, always on the hunt for food, cigarette and booze. That’s how his probation officer, Nelson Barque, took advantage of him.

RS:

He left booze in his locker, with a blanket – like having little picnics, right. The stuff was in the bottom drawer of his filing cabinet – he would say, “just a minute” and he would tell the secretary or whatever, “don’t disturb him”, he would come in, lock his door, and whatever he decided he wanted to do, he would do.

CBC:

It wasn’t long before Sheets met Nelson Barque‘s colleague, another probation officer by the name of Ken Seguin.

RS:

I was out at Nelson’s and he said “Oh I’m going out to Ken Seguin’s tonight” and Ken had pornography and they started playing movies and stuff and drinking, I think it was gin that time, and it progressed and we ended up in the bedroom and Ken watched while me and Nelson had sex. I don’t know how many times we went to Ken’s house, but Ken never had sex with me. He always watched.

CBC:

Two probation officers with access to many young boys. CBC News has interviewed dozens of men who tell stories of drunken parties and sex with the same probation officers.

Keith Ouellette:

It’s too late, it’s too late for me – maybe not for other people, but too late for me.

CBC:

Keith Ouellette is a skinny man with long black hair. He fidgets while sitting at the old wooden table in his kitchen. He is talking about what happened to him while he was a teenager.

KO:

I started drugs when I was about 12, 13 years old. I continued to use drugs and then sell them. Then I got in trouble in school, and then I became a young offender – that’s how I got to meet Ken Seguin.

CBC:

Ken Seguin was his probation officer.

KO:

He would buy pot for me – he would give me the money to go get it, and then he would share a joint with me. He wouldn’t smoke much though, but I know that after I had been smoking, he would be taking advantage of me.

CBC:

Ouellette said the moment he tried to resist his probation officer, he got into more trouble.

KO:

He was coming on to me in his office and that’s when I told him “No”, a clear “No, not anymore.” And he says, “You know, I could revoke your parole for that.” And I said, “You wouldn’t dare.”  And he did. And I ended up in jail.

CBC:

Robert Sheets and Keith Ouellette are almost the same age. They never knew each other growing up; listening to them, however, one is struck by this – they have lived the same nightmare. Each was abused by their probation officer – they also became ensnared by a third government employee, Richard Hickerson. Keith Ouellette remembers going to see him in what used to be called the Manpower Office.

KO:

Ken Seguin sent me there for a job. At first everything was normal. He (Hickerson) was acting normally. He would come and pick me up at my Mom’s home. He would take me out for steak dinners and chinese restaurants and stuff like that. The same M.O. as Ken Seguin. Bars, get me drunk, then take advantage of me. He is a pig. That’s the only way I could describe it.

RS:

You know, he was just disgusting. A big, pale blob.

CBC:

Robert Sheets also has little nice to say about the Manpower worker.

RS:

I always picture him crying too, because he cried all the time. That was his little thing, his little way of manipulating and telling me that’s what love was, and at least Nelson was straightforward. He was crude, but he was straightforward. He told me, “You screw with me, and you’re going to jail.”

CBC:

Like Ouellette, Sheets says the employment counsellor peddled big dreams about good jobs, but these were jobs he never delivered.

RS:

He made a lot of promises that he didn’t keep. He knew about Nelson Barque too. Nelson Barque knew about   Richard Hickerson. Everybody knew about everybody. I told everybody about everybody. You know having one person involved with you at a young age is one thing – like a Manpower counsellor – and then a probation officer – then another probation officer – you start to wonder here. “This is normal?”

CBC:

CBC News has confirmed that in the early eighties the senior probation bureaucrat confronted Barque. The province conducted two internal investigations into the allegations of sexual misconduct. Robert Sheets remembers when it happened.

RS:

It was really funny, because I was just walking down First Street by Louie’s Pizzeria and this car pulls over and two guys in suits called me by name and started questioning me. I phoned Nelson, and told Nelson – I said “Nelson, two guys just put me in the back seat of a car and they were questioning me about you.” He said, “Well did you tell them I gave you booze? You didn’t tell them about sex did you?” I said, “I didn’t tell them nothing.”

CBC:

It cost Barque his job in the probation office, but he was never charged. It took another 15 years for someone to speak out about the probation officers. In August, 1995 Barque pleaded guilty to sexually abusing another boy while he was a probation officer. [sound of jail doors slamming shut]

CBC:

Both Keith Ouellette and Robert Sheets talked to police, but getting a day in court is complicated. Before police could lay charges, there were two deaths. The probation officer, Nelson Barque, killed himself in June of 1998. That same month the Manpower worker also died suddenly. The other probation officer, Ken Seguin, committed suicide 7 years ago. Ouellette and Sheets are frustrated that they have lost their chance to face the dead men.

RS:

All I can think of is “government, government, these are government employees”. They had a job to do and they took me down the wrong path and they didn’t have to. The thing is, they didn’t want me to get a job, get away from the alcohol. I had to be down there for me to be of any use to them. And that’s why they didn’t do their jobs.

CBC:

Ouellette and Sheets say these government workers breached a precious trust and if the dead men can’t answer for their crimes, they believe the former employers should.

Later broadcast

CBC (Maureen Brosnahan): revealed the Ontario government knew almost 20 years ago about allegations involving sexual abuse by probation officers in Cornwall. At least two former probation officers in this city have been identified as part of a pedophile ring that operated in the area for more than forty years. It included more than fifty victims and at least two dozen perpetrators.

In addition to probation officers, the ring included people such as Roman Catholic priests, church officials, a former coroner, lawyers and business leaders. Our national reporter, Maureen Brosnahan, looks at the role of probation officers in the ring. We want to caution listeners about some of the content of this report.

CBC:

Bobby Sheets is a small, slight man. He is now 38. As a teenager he drank a lot and got into fights.

RS:

I got assault charges and causing disturbance charges, and stuff like that at a young age.

CBC:

His parents threw him out and he lived in the streets, and he got in trouble with the law. That’s how he met Ken Seguin and Nelson Barque, both probation officers in Cornwall. Sheets says that for years the two men used their positions to exploit teenagers – ply them with pot and booze, then extorted sexual favours.

RS:

Ken had pornography on those 8 mm things – and they started playing movies and stuff. They were drinking gin I think it was that time. We ended up in the bedroom and Ken watched while me and Nelson had sex.

CBC:

Sheets and others told CBC this went on for years. In 1982, Sheets says his best friend, who was also on probation, filed a complaint against Nelson Barque. A couple of days later, Sheets remembers being questioned by two men about his friend’s complaint. He said nothing, because he was afraid of Barque. The men never asked him about Seguin. Peter Seres remembers all that. He took the original complaint. He is retired now, but at the time, he was the Area Manager for Probation Services in Cornwall. Seres says he started his own review and notified the Ontario government. Two officials from Queen’s Park immediately came to Cornwall and began their own investigation. Those were the men who spoke to Bobby Sheets.

Seres says within a couple of days he and the officials confronted Nelson Barque. Barque resigned immediately. No criminal charges were ever laid. Seres says the report of the investigation is on file with the Department, but attempts by CBC Radio to obtain a copy and other related reports have been blocked by the provincial government

In 1995, Barque was charged with sexually abusing another boy under his supervision. Barque pleaded guilty. The judge called it an “isolated event”. Barque was sentenced to 4 months in jail and 18 months probation. Nothing was ever mentioned about other victims such as Sheets.

In 1993, Ken Seguin killed himself after he found out police were investigating him. In 1998 Nelson Barque killed himself. Police say they were investigating more allegations involving him at the time of his death.

As for others implicated in the ring, some have been charged and are awaiting trial; others have yet to be charged and several more have died unexpectedly in the past year.

Maureen Brosnahan, CBC News, in Cornwall, Ontario

Later broadcast

An alleged pedophile ring that operated in the town for more than forty years. Dozens of young men say they were sexually abused by members of the ring. They claim it included Roman Catholic priests, church officials, a former coroner, lawyers and business leaders. At one time it also included at least two probation officers. Both Ken Seguin and Nelson Barque committed suicide when they learned they were being investigated by police. Many of their victims say over the years they tried to complain, but no one listened. Two of those young men are now speaking publicly about how the abuse affected their lives. Our national reporter, Maureen Brosnahan, brings us their story.

Keith Ouellette:

It’s pointillism. It’s all subliminal.

CBC:

Keith Ouellette shows off his artwork. The 46 year old man says he has tried to use his talents to express his anger over years of abuse at the hands of influential people in Cornwall.

Ouellette was first abused by a family member. In his teens, he got into drugs, got into trouble with the law, he was put on probation. He was assigned to Ken Seguin. As a probation officer, Seguin forced him to perform all kinds of sexual acts, despite Ouellette’s objections.

KO:

He’d buy my pot, he’d buy my booze, then he’d pay for my way here, pay for my way there. He was coming on to me in his office, and that’s when I told him “No”, a clear “No” “not any more” and he said “You know, I could revoke your parole for that, you know if you don’t cooperate?” I said, “You wouldn’t dare” and he did. So I ended up in jail.

CBC:

Ouellette complained. He even went right to the Chief of the Cornwall Police Department. Ouellette said, after that two police officers threatened his life if he ever opened his mouth again about Ken Seguin.

KO:

I was really afraid for my life. I was afraid to go out on the street for months after that.

CBC:

CBC Radio has put in requests to review police documents about these events, but those requests have been turned down.

Roger:

You don’t understand. Nobody understands

CBC:

Roger was also abused by Ken Seguin. He is still so frightened he doesn’t want us to use his full name. He is now 42, but back then he was a scared, immature teenager from an abusive family. He ended up on probation after he shot and wounded his father in an attempt to protect his mother from a beating. Ken Seguin was assigned as his probation officer. One night Seguin saw him drinking a beer, a violation of his probation, but instead of reporting him, Seguin told Roger to follow him back to his house. When he got there, Roger says Seguin offered him a beer.

Roger:

I said “I’m not allowed that” and he said, “You already broke your probation, so you might as well have one now.” I had a beer, and he says to me, “Do you know what they do to guys like you in prison?”

CBC:

Roger was scared. He asked Seguin if he was going to send him to jail. He said no, but he said, “You have to do something.” I said, “What do you mean I got to do something?” [sound of crying] This is hard, I didn’t think it would be this hard, but it’s hard.

CBC:

Roger said Seguin forced him to perform sexual acts.

Roger:

I went home and I think I drank half a bottle of rye and I got sick and I puked and I puked. I was just so disgusted. I think I brushed my teeth at the time until they bled.

CBC:

Roger said the abuse continued for the two years he was on probation.

Roger:

Visit after visit, you were told to meet him at his house at a certain time of the day. He’d be there. It was rough. It hurt. It’s a horrible, horrible experience.

CBC:

Roger says he was too scared to tell anybody.

Roger:

Kenny would threaten you if you told anybody. He’d deny it because he has the power. You’re a probationer, you’re not trustworthy. You’re always threatened in that manner.

CBC:

Today Roger’s anger remains even though Seguin is dead. He killed himself a few years ago after police started investigating him.

Roger:

I know where Ken Seguin has been buried. I have gone there. I’d like to dig him up – this is ugly – dig him up and just scatter his bones. Let the animals have him like the animals has had us.

CBC:

For the past few years, dozens of people in Cornwall have told CBC Radio that they, over the years, told authorities about what was going on. Similar information has also come out in court hearings, but there has been no full public hearing. CBC Radio has sought to obtain documents under Access to Information about these incidents involving the Cornwall probation office. Those requests have so far been denied.

Today Roger and Keith Ouellette are doing their best to get on with their lives. They have never received any formal acknowledgement from the Ontario government for the abuse they say they have suffered and since the probation officer is now dead, it looks like they never will.

Maureen Brosnahan, CBC News, Cornwall, Ontario

Later broadcast

CBC:

Albert Roy was sexually abused by two probation officers when he was a teenager. Now after a 3 year legal battle, he has accepted an out of court settlement, and still the Ontario government refuses to acknowledge responsibility. Maureen Brosnahan has more:

CBC:

Albert Roy is proud of his little bungalow in the north end of Cornwall.

AR:

Here’s our hallway, and we have our family pictures here.

CBC:

It’s his first home. He used part of his $132,000 settlement from the province to make the down payment. He also bought a used truck, but in the end Roy says the settlement has done little to ease the hurt and shame he’s suffered at the hands of probation officers Ken Seguin and Nelson Barque. Roy is still under psychiatric care.

AR:

I don’t think any amount of money can take away the pain.

CBC:

In 1995 Roy accused Nelson Barque of molesting him when he was 16 and on probation for theft. By then Barque was no longer a probation officer. He pleaded guilty to abusing Roy. He was sentenced to 4 months in jail. The judge called it an isolated event. He didn’t know about Barque’s other victims or that Barque had left his job in probation because he had been accused of molesting another boy. The second probation officer, Ken Seguin, was never charged. He killed himself in 1993 after learning he was under investigation.

Roy says he felt pressured to take the settlement money, even though it was not what lawyers had told him he would receive. His lawyer, John Morris, declined to talk about the settlement. Until recently, Morris represented other men who claimed they were abused by probation officers and priests in Cornwall.

But Morris’ law firm is now part of the same firm that represents the Catholic church and several priests implicated in the scandal.

Albert Roy says he feels cheated.

AR:

I just mean the whole thing was quite discouraging. I don’t think I would do it again, come forward.

CBC:

Roy says he doesn’t want to dissuade others from coming forward, but in his experience he says victims seem to have little real chance of getting what he calls “justice”.

Maureen Brosnahan, CBC News, Cornwall, Ontario

Later broadcast

Yesterday we heard the stories of two men, now today we are going to hea r another man’s story, two men who had been abused by government workers when they were teenagers on probation. Now the story of another man who went through the same thing. The difference is he has received money from the Ontario government for compensation. CBC Ottawa’s Rita Celli found he is using it to slowly put his life back together.

Albert Roy:

There’s no carpet on the floor but that’s because we are renovating and I am just working at it slowly – I have a lot of friends who come over.

CBC:

Albert Roy is surrounded by his dogs as he shows off his new home.

AR:

That’s my little pup walking around – I am going in the kitchen. We had to put a new floor in the kitchen because it was a black/grey and the kitchen was almost a black/green and we put it all white – I like bright.

CBC:

The Ontario government settled a claim by Roy. He got just enough money to buy a 2nd hand truck and a modest bungalow.

AR:

Your home is kind of like a centrepiece of your life because the kids come here, and now we know we are going to be here, we can raise our children that are left here – we have two – and our dogs – and make a garden, and flowers and put a nail any place we want.

CBC:

It has taken Albert Roy a long time to get here. In the 1970’s when he was 16 years old he stole a car.

AR:

I was manic depressive, so maybe that makes it even worse that these guys picked on me because they picked on somebody that was vulnerable.

CBC:

Roy ended up on probation and in the clutches of two probation officers in Cornwall – Ken Seguin and Nelson Barque.

AR:

I was a scared kid. Ken would walk around and he would be slapping one of the cops on the back, shaking hands with lawyers, judges. One of the things he used to say to me is, “Go ahead and tell somebody. I’ll be the first one to know.” And you gotta remember, I already went through the experience of going from Nelson to Ken – so who the hell am I going to go to now? Is the next guy going to be worse?

CBC:

Almost 20 years after he had been abused in the Cornwall probation office, Albert Roy went to police. By that time, Ken Seguin had already killed himself and police could only charge one of the probation officers, Nelson Barque. In August 1995 he pleaded guilty to abusing Roy. Court testimony shows Barque testified it is a one-time offence. Not so. CBC has confirmed that the Provincial Corrections Ministry conducted two internal investigations into Nelson Barque in the early eighties, which cost him his job as a probation officer, but no charges were ever laid until Albert Roy spoke up.

AR:

If you think about it – if I somebody had hurt somebody and told them ‘just go away and I won’t tell anybody’ – isn’t that criminal?

CBC:

Armed with a conviction in the criminal court, Roy hired a lawyer and knocked on the door of the Ontario government. He reluctantly says that what he got isn’t enough.

AR:

It’s hard to say it isn’t enough because I am grateful for what I did get, but it’s not what I was hoping to get. I was hoping to get a chance, or a new life.

CBC:

Roy is happy with his small bungalow but it hasn’t been a magic cure.

AR:

There’s no closure. I am still seeing a psychiatrist. I still see a psychotherapist. I still have the nightmares, the panic attacks, it hasn’t gone away. The money won’t make it go away.

CBC:

Now Roy worries about all the other men like him, just beginning to go through the court.

AR:

I got lucky because I have a wonderful wife, and I’ve got great kids. [sound of crying] I hung on because I knew I had to, and I have in my mind’s eye a picture of somebody just huddling up against a building, that’s what I see. But there are sexual abuse victims who are dying out there [crying] and the system don’t give a shit.

CBC:

On most nights, Roy sits in his easy chair by the window, surrounded by his dogs, and the nearby ashtray is full of cigarette butts.

AR:

I loved the picture all the time I was with him and

CBC:

On the wall above him is a picture from his psychiatrist. It’s the tail of a whale diving into the water.

AR:

When he retired he gave it to me and signed it on the back, it says Talbot, and I always thought of him as a grandfather. He was an older gentleman, and those are the people who were doing what they were supposed to be doing.   When you think of it, Ken and Nelson, I mean – they could have been what Dr. Mudavor was, a help, but they weren’t.

CBC:

As he sits by his window, so many years later, Albert Roy still thinks an awful lot about what happened to him as a teenager.

Rita Celli, CBC News Cornwall.

Later broadcast

Victims of a suspected pedophile ring that operated for decades in Cornwall, Ontario. Albert Roy received an out of court settlement from the province for the abuse he suffered at the hands of two probation officers. Both officers are now dead and each committed suicide after learning the police were investigating more allegations of abuse. Maureen Brosnahan has this report:

CBC:

Albert Roy is proud to show off his new home.

AR:

And then we have the main bedroom which used to be two small rooms.

CBC:

It’s a small bungalow in the north end of Cornwall. It’s a first home for the 42 year old father. Roy used part of his $132,000 settlement from the province as a down payment. Roy’s on permanent disability and remains under psychiatric care. He says the money’s not much but it’s a start.

AR:

It wasn’t what I expected. I was hoping that maybe I could get myself a little business or something where I could get off my pension and be a little more independent, but it didn’t happen.

CBC:

Roy first disclosed his abuse in 1995. He accused Nelson Barque of sexually molesting him when he was 16 and on probation for theft. Roy finally complained to Barque’s supervisor, Ken Seguin, but he said in helping him, Roy says Seguin abused him even more.

In 1995, Barque, who was no longer a probation officer, pleaded guilty to abusing Roy. He was sentenced to 4 months in jail. The judge called it an isolated event. He didn’t know about Barque’s other victims or that Barque left probation because he had been accused of molesting another boy. Ken Seguin was never charged. He killed himself a year and a half earlier after police began investigating him.

It took more than two years to reach a settlement. Roy says the money was not what his lawyer had said he would likely receive and it’s far less than the $4-600,000 paid out by the Newfoundland government to each of the victims of the Mount Cashel Orphanage.   But Roy said he felt pressured by both his lawyer and the process to accept the offer.

AR:

They tell you to take the money or there’s a chance you will get nothing. My family has been through hell and I had to decide when’s the time to start taking care of my family.

CBC:

John Morris was Roy’s lawyer. He declined   to talk about the case and until recently, Morris was also representing other men who say they were abused by probation officers and priests in Cornwall. But his law firm has since merged with one in Ottawa – the same one that now represents the Catholic Church and several priests implicated in the Cornwall scandal. Morris says under those circumstances, he won’t be handling   any more cases for victims in Cornwall.

Maureen Brosnahan, CBC News, Cornwall, Ontario

Later broadcast

The men were just boys or teenagers when it happened. Some are now seeking redress through Ontario criminal compensation board, but those settlements tend to be limited in scope and involve relatively small amounts of money. Others are waiting for the outcome of criminal trials that have dragged on for years. Albert Roy was one of the first of the men to receive a settlement but as Maureen Brosnahan reports, he’s not sure the 3 year battle was worth it.

AR:

You know, I still ask myself that question all the time. I still want to find out if I am a good person or not.

CBC:

Albert Roy is a thoughtful, articulate man, but now as he reaches 40, he believes he was never given the chance to reach his full potential. That’s because when he was 16 he was sexually abused by two probation officers, Ken Seguin and Nelson Barque.

He said they knew he had emotional problems which were later diagnosed as manic depression.

AR:

There’s a scary voice inside of me that says that Nelson and Ken had enough training to know that I was ill.   But I think at the time, if they would have gotten me the help I needed, I could have been a lot better off than I am now. But because these guys decided to abuse me instead, I just became a complete screw-up for the next 20 years and I am still going through it.

CBC:

Today Roy remains under psychiatric care. He’s on long-term disability. He spends a lot of his time chain-smoking, and looking out the window of his small bungalow in the north end of Cornwall. The house is one of the few things he has to show for his 3 year legal battle. After paying his lawyer, he got $132,000 from the province of Ontario. He put a down payment on a house, and bought a used truck, but he says the process left him scarred and bitter.

AR:

I think I was looking for getting something back, something I had lost. A way of getting back – years I guess.

CBC:

Roy was one of the first of the Cornwall victims to come forward and speak out about his abuse. He filed a complaint with police, he even managed to secure a criminal conviction against one of his abusers, Nelson Barque. But he says even with that, the Ontario government still refuses to acknowledge its responsibility. He worries what will happen to other victims who are seeking compensation

AR:

I think they are going to have a hard time. ]

As you start to go through this, and you start to realize how far down the food chain you are in this situation – because that’s exactly the way it is.

CBC:

Roy says he doesn’t want to discourage other victims from stepping forward, but looking back now, he says he wouldn’t go through it all again. He’d Stay quiet.

AR:

I mean, the lawyers do their jobs, but that’s what they do. It’s just a job. You would think that somewhere in society there’s somewhere a victim can go to get real help – and I think the real help is not just in therapy, but it’s changing the system itself – changing the way the victim has to go about proving his case – the time it takes. Time always works in favour of the accused, not the victim.

“C’mon Corky, get it, c’mon ” “There you go, quite a high jumper”

CBC:

Today Roy spends time with his dogs and fixing up his home. He still has panic attacks and nightmares, but he says he is slowly getting better.

AR:

It used to be almost a black/blue in here and we painted it a light colour, to make it more bright. I like bright.

CBC:  Roy says he knows he will never fully recover from what happened to him, but he still holds out hope that at least the future will be brighter than the past. For him, and other victims in Cornwall. Maureen Brosnahan,

CBC News, Cornwall, Ontario

Later broadcast

CBC:

He started getting in trouble with the law. His probation officer lured him into sex in exchange for booze, so did his employment counsellor.

RS:

All I could think was “government, government”. These are government employees and they had a job to do and they took me down the wrong path. They didn’t have to.

CBC:

Sheets is one of several men looking for justice in the civil court. They have given up on the criminal cases even though most of the prominent men facing charges have yet to go on trial. Dick Nadeau, a man who says he was abused by two priests, is the brain behind the lawsuits.

Dick Nadeau:

Just imagine how the guys feel. They have given their statements. They have waited, waited. Court’s been delayed. Court’s been delayed. Court’s been delayed. When they are finally going to get their day in court – and the guy just died. The guys are left out, wouldn’t know where to go. How am I going to be able to prove what happened to me. This is a way of being able to do that.

CBC:

The men are hoping a Supreme Court ruling last year will help their case. The court raised expectations of employers making it easier to find them liable for the crimes of their employees.

Rita Celli, CBC News, Cornwall, Ontario